Tuesday, August 7, 2007
Leadership.
Yesterday, I was essentially handed a big leadership responsibility...I have gone from being a musical peon who sometimes plays guitar during Monday prayer night to the guy who will be running the whole Saturday Night Alive show...I could use some prayer, that my abilities will be up to par by the time I get there, so that I can play in front of the congregation, that I will be mindful of myself and not be prideful, and that I will be challenging to others in love and be able to cope with the politics and attitudes of our group. I need to be tough, I can tell you...our two guitarists are kind of clashing right now...one is apparently being very prideful and refusing to play with the other, because the other is refusing to "get up to speed" and learn some new things...in short, I am walking into a warzone. But, as David said, the battle is the Lord's. I will stand ready for anything, knowing that he is with me.
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25 comments:
I will be praying...
I will offer you some advice also... pray.
It sounds simple, it sounds easy, but pray. Before you lead worship pray that God will be with you and that HE will be glorified through you, that you won't focus on your abilities, inabilities, or faults and focus on being in a worship mindset. God can use the least talented person to inspire others!
I have two friends who can't carry a tune to save their lives. The one is so self conscious that he lip syncs and the worship isn't there. The other one opens his heart to God and sings with a loud full voice. Every time I hear him sing I am moved by it, I hear God's love in him and God uses him to remind me we can ALL be used by Him in many ways.
It's all in your outlook, keep your focus on doing what God wants you to do and HE will bless you for it!
Hugs & Love
Praying doesn't sound like easy advice at all. Prayer by myself is difficult.
David,
What's your take on the Baptism in the Holy Spirit...gifts of the spirit...etc?
I have found that asking God to change other's stoney hearts into flesh has worked in times when people are being prideful. If the better guitarist could mentor the one who's not so great they would both probably be happy...as long as it was done with patience and understanding. God gives grace to the humble..but stiff arms the proud. (stiff arm = when you were little and someone would put their hand on your forehead with their arm locked and you would run in place)
Obviously God has placed you in this position so you must have the goods. All promotion comes from Him, right?
I believe you're thinking of Proverbs 3:34 "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble"
Also quoted in James chapter 4.
Anyway, I am baptised in the Holy Spirit, why do you ask?
I asked simply because you keep stating your lack of motivation when it comes to praying. When I know I need to pray but am feeling lack of direction, or even motivation..I just pray in the spirit and have confidence that it's being covered. Besides...it builds our faith when we do and then enemy can't distract you because you aren't using your mind.
"I just pray in the spirit and have confidence that it's being covered."
If I'm not praying in the spirit, I'm not wasting my time. And I don't babble, or do what some people mistakenly call "speaking in tongues". "Tongues" means languages, and babble is not a language.
This is why I asked if you believed in the baptism in the holy spirit..not being water baptised into the father, son, holy spirit...it's totally different. If you don't believe in tongues..that's certainly your perogative. It's not an eternal issue so I won't argue about it but I do pray in tongues...another language, yes...and I thought that if you were open to it you could reap the benefits of it. I'm not someone who follows the crowd just because...I study the things that I believe in the original text as closely as possible with a concordance...so please don't think I'm some fool who does what everyone else is doing. I have to know that what I believe is scriptural before I will apply it to my life. Now, that being said...I look at the fruit in someone's life to tell if they are following God or not. If you think badly of me because I speak in tongues I'll be sorry to hear that..but I will still consider you my brother..and myself your sister in the Lord.
David,
I want to apologize if my previous post sounds defensive. I felt defensive when I wrote it. I have enough respect for people not to assume that I know it all and I guess I felt that the way you worded your response gives the impression that not only do you disapprove of something I find very important in my personal walk with God...but that I'm an idiot for "babbling"..which btw is not what I do. I also was surprised because of your (valid)soapbox about Christians being hurtful with other Christians. It's hurtful when you disrespect someone's beliefs. I can disagree with you and still see that God is obviously at work in your life. It's not my job to be God to you...or change your way of thinking. Anyway..at this point I have no problem with dropping the subject and agreeing to disagree. I just wanted to apologize for sounding unloving.
If you have the gift, I am not opposed to you using it at the appropriate time and place (which, as far as I can see by the scripture, is when you are alone with God and no one else is present). Paul clearly defines that it is not to be used in public in 1 Corinthians 14.
It was a bit self-righteous of me to jump on that so harshly, but the act of "speaking in tongues" is one which I feel has gotten out of hand, and has negatively affected the experience of a friend of mine with the Church (the gift was not being used in a way which edified the church- which is to say some people were not speaking in a real language, and they were doing it in the presence of others) and Christianity in general, along with the disorderly worship issue which Paul talks about in the next chapter.
I do not feel that it is a salvation issue either. But I feel that it is an issue which very much affects our witness here on Earth, and that is something which is very important.
Ok..agreed. I have participated in prayer meetings where everyone was praying in tongues but not for a long time. I don't have the same understanding of the scriptures you mentioned as you do so I'm not convinced that it was wrong of us to do that..but I do think that there are always people who do in their flesh something to bring attention to themselves when it is so very inapropriate and that this can be used by the enemy greatly to turn people away.
If you are not familiar with 1 Corinthians 14, familiarize yourself with it. Since speaking in tongues is something you do, you should educate yourself about what the bible says about it. The same way I should educate myself on what the bible says about teaching.
In case you don't read it, Paul makes several points:
[Paul's Argument]
-Speaking in tongues is speaking the mysteries of the spirit, which people cannot understand except the person who is speaking in tongues.
-Speaking in tongues is not edifying to the church, because no one else knows what you are saying, so no one else can benefit from the Spirit.
-The only way people will know what you are saying is if you translate it yourself into a real language that people can understand. This is something that we do every time we pray; we translate the feelings in our hearts, our thoughts, and the Spirit's guidance into language for others to hear.
-If other people cannot understand what you are saying, then they cannot agree with what you are praying for, because they do not know what it is.
-Paul's Implication: If there is contention in prayer due to someone not understanding, then that person who does not understand will likely close off the spirit or not agree with the praying person and the prayer will not be effective because someone else is praying against it!
-The Logical Conclusion: Only God knows what you mean when you speak in tongues, and no one but you can translate it. Therefore, speak in tongues only when you are alone with God, with no one else present.
[My Interpretations and Examples]
-I know that when someone prays in tongues, I do not put myself in agreement, because I do not know what they are praying for. And I cannot tell the difference between spirit led "speaking in tongues" and random babble. Since I cannot tell the difference between the two, I will not agree. This is why we ourselves translate the Spirit into a legitimate language, so that people can know whether to agree or disagree, and so that we can clearly communicate what God is telling us.
-The spirit does not just lead us in prayer, but also in conversations with others. When the spirit leads you to speak a word of encouragement to your sister in Christ, do you speak in a real language, or do you babble? And what if you told her in babble, would it be helpful? No. We speak in languages so that there is edification and benefit for others. Prayer is the same way.
-Your personal experiences with praying in tongues is irrelevant, because it isn't about you. Prayer, when another person is present, isn't about you and God. It's about you, the other people or person praying with you, and God. It is a team effort. Whoever is speaking in group prayer is leading the others in what to be focusing on, like the captain of a team. If the captain isn't speaking in the same language as every other player, what good is his leadership? He may be a tactical genius, but no one knows what to do. Could you imagine going into a football huddle and the Quarterback starts speaking Chinese to the other players? How likely do you think it is that their next play will be a good one?
I'm guessing your wrote all this to educate me so I'm sorry you spent the time to write something so lengthy. Since you aren't interested in even trying to really hear me on my beliefs or agree to disagree..I suppose it's the most peaceful choice to be like Abraham and Lot...you live here and I'll live over there. I hope that as God uses you in ministry you will realize that it's not just your job to educate...but also to listen and learn.
Joanne, David, I love you both... but both of you have made mistakes here that need to be addressed.
David... I understand where you are coming from with calling it babble, but to call speaking in tongues babble is offensive to those who have that gift. You and I may not believe it to be real or at the very least, not real to us, but God gives everyone different gifts. In I Cor 14, the passage you pointed out, it even says that there are those who will have that gift and others who won't. Yes, to those who do not have the gift it will sound like babble, and without interpretation it is meaningless and should be avoided. But calling it babble is not respectful of those who have experienced this gift first hand, and just because you and I have not experienced it, that doesn't mean that no one has being disrespectful of it is not showing love for our sister in Christ in this situation.
Joanne... this is a topic that in the time that I have known you has been a hot one time and time again. You are very passionate about it because it is a special gift that you have from God. I am happy for you. David was trying to show you the reason he believes what he believes. He outlined it well, he even said he's not opposed to you using this gift in an appropriate way, then went on to tell you how he felt it was appropriate. Yes, some of the way things were worded were offensive (educate, instruct, and of course babble) but overall his intent seems to be pure and in the interest of legitimate discussion about this topic. After reading I Corinthians 14, I came to the same conclusion he did about use of this gift in public, which if I'm not mistaken is a tangent in the first place since this was about praying about his musical ability and leadership skills. What struck me the most was verse 16 "When you give thanks to God in spirit only, how can ordinary people taking part in the meeting say "Amen" to your prayer of thanksgiving? They have no way of knowing what you are saying." It's the same thing David was trying to say in his very long post. Yes, in his 19 year old do-no-wrong mindset he was a little overzealous and worded it as though he was the authority on it and it made him seem a bit arrogant (sorry David) but he was trying to show you the reason for his beliefs.
Now, both of you, kiss and make up. If you disagree on this topic, that's fine, but we are adults who love Christ and need to have a united front. We are to put away our pride, and I see plenty of it on both sides here, and humble ourselves with each other and ask for forgiveness for our offenses (which I believe both of you owe to each other).
Titus 3:9 says "But avoid stupid arguments, long lists of ancestors, quarrels, and fights about the Law. They are useless and worthless."
That is what this is and the Bible tells us to let it go, so let it go, be reconciled in Christ's love, and continue to love each other as the brother and sister you are to each other.
Finally, I'll leave you with a part of the Sermon on the Mount... Matthew 5:21-27
"21 "You have heard that people were told in the past, 'Do not commit murder; anyone who does will be brought to trial.' 22 But now I tell you: if you are angry with your brother you will be brought to trial, if you call your brother 'You good-for-nothing!' you will be brought before the Council, and if you call your brother a worthless fool you will be in danger of going to the fire of hell. 23 offer your gift to God at the altar and there you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar, go at once and make peace with your brother, and then come back and offer your gift to God.
25 "If someone brings a lawsuit against you and takes you to court, settle the dispute while there is time, before you get to court. Once you are there, you will be turned over to the judge, who will hand you over to the police, and you will be put in jail. 26 There you will stay, I tell you, until you pay the last penny of your fine."
Pay attention specifically to verses 23 & 24... we are to put aside EVERYTHING, even our offerings to God, until we reconcile with each other. When we have a broken relationship, it will hinder our relationship with God also.
I love you both, I hope you know I'm writing this in love. I hope you choose to do what is right.
Hugs & Love
2 Tim 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth
I appologize if I was quarreling, David. I think it's awesome that you know scripture..you just don't know how that truly excites me in a world full of Christians who don't read their Bibles. I also think it's admirable that you are strong about your beliefs..again, those who don't read have no idea why they believe what they believe. In truth, you are very refreshing to me. I never intended to disrespect YOUR beliefs. The funny thing is...the whole reason I mentioned any of this is because you said you had difficulty praying WHILE ALONE. So, I'm still a bit confused as to how it turned into you thinking I needed to be straightened out on public prayer in tongues. Several times I have started posts full of scriptures and explaination in response but I kept feeling like it had gone beyond a debate and I didn't want to fuel it because regardless of how you feel about me or my beliefs..you are my brother and I respect where you stand. But..hey, I'm totally willing to drop it.
"David... I understand where you are coming from with calling it babble, but to call speaking in tongues babble is offensive to those who have that gift."
Understood.
"Yes, in his 19 year old do-no-wrong mindset he was a little overzealous and worded it as though he was the authority on it and it made him seem a bit arrogant (sorry David)"
You could hear a 35 year old guy I know go on about it. He makes me sound like a huggy-feely "everything is ok" televangelist. This doesn't have to do with my age, and I feel that that is an unfair cheap shot to chalk up my behavior to my age. How many arrogant things do "adults" say?
"to call speaking in tongues babble is offensive to those who have that gift."
What the heck am I supposed to call it, then? "Speaking in tongues" means literally "Speaking in a language". When people do the "I'm not translating what the Spirit is telling me into a language" thing, it's not "speaking in a language". Babble, in spite of how disrespectful it sounds, was the easiest way for me to define it. That's what I was doing when I called it "babble". I was trying to define what people often refer to as "speaking in tongues", but is not. Maybe I should have been less lazy and more PC about my definition of terms, but I figured I could get away with my "not nice" phrasing a little more, since I was amongst people who aren't going to be sensitive about every little thing I say.
I don't have a quarrel with Joanne. I have a quarrel with a gift of the spirit being used inappropriately. This is like that "men suck" email that you sent me, Rachel- it touched a nerve. I thought I had already addressed my snarky attitude in my last post, but what happened was what I wrote originally got deleted because my bloody laptop's battery ran down and long story short, I had to re-write the whole thing, and forgot to include an apology for the language I used (my frustration in my laptop failing me in the critical moment probably added to my inability to present my argument in a loving way). Of course, I still continued to use my poor language, but I sometimes fall into the trap of saying things in such a way that I couldn't say to the person's face. I may have not have had the same nasty tone in person, but I would have made the same points, and with no less conviction.
That's all I got. I'm done talking about this. All I have to say is ignore me and look at what the scripture tells you. This isn't about me and whatever my circle of buddies thinks is acceptable, and ditto for everyone else. It's about what we are told to do by God. Maybe I didn't pick the best way to say it, but 1 Corinthians is still there, and is true independent of how I present it. The truth isn't subjective, and how we are to act is NOT based on our experiences. The Law and the Truth is objective, and it is in The Book. The way I presented the Truth may have been craptastic, but Paul's spirit given teachings certainly aren't.
Hi David,
I'm going to chalk up how I read this post as being a text-related misread and not let it get to me, but it does have a somewhat hostile and attack feel to it. The fact that you are still emailing me off of here, well, that tells me that isn't your intent.
I don't mind you having strong convictions, but we are to present things in love. I'm sorry that you know a 35 year old who makes you seem wishy washy, when we are too set in our ways and mindsets we also close the door to possibilities of learning more from others around us. So often God can open doors for us if only we think outside our comfort zone, consider possibilities that we normally wouldn't, etc... and we can be greatly blessed by it. I'm not talking about tongues, I'm being open with that statement because it can effect so many areas of our life, relationships specifically come to mind. Living in harmony with those around us often requires negotiation and compromise... both require an open mind and a heart willing to learn from others, even if you learn something you don't agree with, knowing what you are up against is a good idea.
Love you, talk with you soon!
Hugs & Love
Rachel
There's a lot of things I could have said better, but I guess it's over now.
With the possible exception of an apology to Joanne for "babble" and the "tone" the messages took, yes, I think this discussion is over... but I think a well worded heartfelt apology would be a good thing for your soul as well as hers. A quarrel, even if not perceived as one on our end, can damage the way we relate to each other...
Hugs & Love
Rachel, I don't need an apology. David and I are straight. (that's slang for we're ok) Sorry, can't help but be ghettofabulous from time to time.
Ok, my OCD is kicking in and I MUST make the number even. This is comment #20. Ahhhhhh, that's better. OH yeah! I'm # 20! Wooo Hoooo! Work it, baby! Right on!
Sorry guys. I'm better now.
...you might want to pray about that.
yes, I think I'm a little concerned about that one myself...
Oh my! Look, the number of posts is uneven! I wonder what will happen now!?
;p
That's not funny. (hehe #24)
haha... odd again, but a multiple of 5... hmmm... which will win out?
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